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Neuhub

Mon, 30 Sep 2024 18:40:51 -0400

I have some good news and some bad news.

The good news is that I am changing my approach to creating new themes for Hubzilla. The bad news is that I am changing my approach to creating new themes for Hubzilla.

One thing that I have been dealing with is that Hubzilla's default theme, Redbasic is not compatible with other Bootstrap themes. Redbasic uses Bootstrap in many places, but it still has a lot of custom code and CSS. And sometimes this custom CSS conflicts with Bootstrap. This becomes a nightmare when trying to change Redbasic's appearance and functionality or trying to use a third-party Bootstrap HTML5 theme or UI Kit as a base for a new Hubzilla theme.

And, even when I figure out a way to make Redbasic and Bootstrap work together, when Hubzilla gets updated, new potential conflicts are introduced. As a result, a lot of the themes that worked months ago don't display properly anymore.

So, I am changing my approach.

1. I will create a Redbasic Plus theme that is basically Redbasic plus some additional navigation. I am not going to try to change how it looks significantly. I am just going to make it easier to navigate and customize.

2. I will create a series of Bootstrap themes that will not depend on the default Redbasic code. I will use vanilla Bootstrap 5 for most of the components so that components can be reused between Bootstrap 5 themes.

The upside of making Redbasic Plus first is that I will have a new working theme faster. The downside is that it won't be the radical transformation I was going for. It also means Neuhub Tab and Neuhub Red Dash will have to wait and will need a significant rewrites. The even bigger downside is that I have to go through every template in Hubzilla and create a Bootstrap 5 version of it. This will, obviously, take some time. The biggest upside is that once I have a set of vanilla Bootstrap 5 components, they can be used in multiple themes with little or no changes.

I have already spent time on the new Redbasic Plus theme and it is coming along nicely. I'll share some screenshots when I get closer to releasing.

I just wanted to give you a heads up. Thank you for your patience.

show all 24 Comments

Mario Vavti

Tue, 01 Oct 2024 01:06:48 -0400

@Neuhub Why not fix the conflicting parts in redbasic instead?

Neuhub

Tue, 01 Oct 2024 02:03:19 -0400

@Mario Vavti I am actually hoping to do that for most of the components.

Where possible, I planned on taking the existing Redbasic components and modifying them to use Bootstrap 5 instead of custom CSS. Or modifying them so that they have both Bootstrap and custom classes, but will still work without the custom classes. But in some cases, I would just rewrite it in Bootstrap since that would be easier.

The ultimate goal would be to make components that are compatible with multiple themes, including Redbasic. Because Redbasic still calls Bootstrap, even if a lot of the templates don't fully utilize it.

I was thinking of approaching it this way:

1. Create a Redbasic Child (derived) theme and replace all of the template files with Bootstrap 5 version.

2. Test these template files on multiple themes, including Redbasic, Tabler, Berry, Mantis, SB Admin, and perhaps others.

3. Once they are ready for production, offer them to Hubzilla as a replacement for the default templates.

I'd rather have it in a separate repository during the design phase since there will be a lot of updates as I test them with multiple themes.

But getting the final product into Hubzilla is one of the goals.

Scott M. Stolz

Tue, 01 Oct 2024 02:43:12 -0400

@Mario Vavti Another benefit of creating a child (derived) theme initially, is that we can have people test it and give feedback before we roll it out to the core.

I am hoping that we can have several people collaborate on this so it gets built faster.

And since we would be using vanilla Bootstrap 5 code that should work with most Bootstrap 5 themes and UI Kits, people only need to know HTML to contribute, since the CSS is already predefined.

Ema エマ

Tue, 01 Oct 2024 03:58:13 -0400

Looking forward seeing results soon! Thanks for your work!

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

Tue, 01 Oct 2024 14:49:35 -0400 last edited: Tue, 01 Oct 2024 17:14:19 -0400

@Neuhub @Scott M. Stolz

in oder to strengthen the HZ ecosystem i would like to encourage you to fix the conflicting parts in redbasic instead going for a other "Redbasic plus" theme or something like that.

i have been working with HZ color schemas recently and I found that there are not so many conflicting parts with BS - there are some but with the willing of fixing it it should be not that much work to do so.

so please do merge requests in the core repro, as i understand Mario is willing to cooperate and would welcome this.

Thanks for your work

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

Tue, 01 Oct 2024 17:21:37 -0400

the HZ core repository needs more contributors.

It would be a pity if innovations do not go into core at the first place... it just will cause more work for the main DEVs -

Neuhub

Tue, 01 Oct 2024 18:32:04 -0400

I don't mind submitting some or all of my modifications to the core myself. So that is not an issue. But there are two possible sticking points:

1. I do not want to wait for approval for changes. If I make a change, I want the change available immediately. I can only do that when committing to a repository I own.

2. Some of the stuff we are working on isn't necessarily desired nor appropriate in the core. The core is for the fediverse server, and not necessarily for special use cases that we are developing for, such as a Learning Management System (LMS).

Neuhub

Tue, 01 Oct 2024 18:52:52 -0400

To help you understand our process, there are are actually three sets of repositories we commit to:

Hubzilla Association - for items appropriate for a multi-purpose fediverse server.

Federated Works - for specialized items designed for specific use cases.

Private Repository - experimental code and custom code that only applies to our websites.

We typically test experimental code in a private repository on private websites.

Considering the above, I was considering doing this:

Redbasic Child Theme with Bootstrap Templates = Hubzilla Association repositories.

Redbasic Plus Theme = Develop on experimental repository first, and then offer it to Hubzilla Association. If Hubzilla Association does not want it, then it gets offered to Federated Works.

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

Tue, 01 Oct 2024 21:24:06 -0400

@Neuhub

An entrepreneur can do what ever he likes to do but let's think of the HZ ecosystem

there are some contradictions in what you write:
didn't you say you doing the "Redbasic Plus" Theme in order to get a "series of Bootstrap themes that will not depend on the default Redbasic code"

so all will depend on this "Redbasic Plus" Theme - how can the new themes than be in the "Hubzilla Association repositorie" without the "Redbasic Plus" Theme ? -

A much better way would be to fix what has to be fixed in the core and than everybody can build on that

The HZ Redbasic Theme got more Bootstrap with the dark/light mode option just recently - so lets go all the way and make all of the css code working with BS.

I do not want to wait for approval for changes

well the changes have to be checked and have to make sense for the core... it is good if more than one DEV is looking at it... but if the aim is clear changes could be approved fast, in my understanding.

Redbasic Child Theme with Bootstrap Templates = Hubzilla Association repositories.

never seen this repositories even i'm one of the very fine few members of the "Hubzilla Association"

Considering that the "Hubzilla Association" does not really work jet it is all kind of hypothetical.

The best we have right now is the core repository- so let's try to attract more attention here and not on other repositories, let's attract more DEVs for more development on core

Some of the stuff we are working on isn't necessarily desired nor appropriate in the core.

that is just fine - sure - special plugins and feature can be developed at different places

Scott M. Stolz

Tue, 01 Oct 2024 22:00:19 -0400 last edited: Tue, 01 Oct 2024 22:46:54 -0400

I guess I am not being clear. Let me explain a bit better:

Project 1: Bootstrap 5 Templates

Phase 1: Redbasic Child Theme with Bootstrap 5 Templates

This is for TESTING and a proof of concept. NOT the final product.

Although it can be used as a base for theme creators to create custom themes.

Phase 2: Move Bootstrap Templates to Core

All of the templates in the above theme will be moved to the core /view/tpl folder.

So the plan is to put this stuff in the core, but have a way to test it first.

Project 2: Redbasic Plus

A variation of Redbasic with an extra sidebar.

This should be a separate theme because not everyone will want the extra sidebar.

This also serves as a base for people who want to create their own custom themes.

As indicated in my original post, there will be a series of themes. Series means multiple, more than one.

I hope this is clearer.

Scott M. Stolz

Tue, 01 Oct 2024 22:57:14 -0400

And for additional clarity, we may make some themes that do not use Hubzilla's default templates at all, or use very few of them.

For example, I plan on using Hubzilla as a base for other projects, such as a productivity app or learning management system (LMS). This would need a completely different UI than what we have now.

But those are different than the two I mentioned in my last post.

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

Wed, 02 Oct 2024 03:08:07 -0400

want to also be clear and not be misunderstood:

you are building on a system which is maintained by very few people. One of the causes for the "Hubzilla Association" was and still is, that we want to support the Project and the people who work for it.

I think it would be cool do make needed changes in the core to make the HZ CSS all the way Bootstrap 5 so that all themes which are for the basic HZ CMS do work on all core installations without the need to look and go to other repositories.
Like with WP, Joomla, Drupal and so on : if we install core all the different themes work.

This would be good als for HZ because we want to make things more easy if possible and not to complicate the installation process.

Now if you use the base to make something quid different and special without the default template - like you name it for your "LMS" project - than it may be just fine to go to other repros as well.

All this is about strengthen the project and because we feel your work could be an important part of it.

Tejan Ausland

Wed, 02 Oct 2024 09:34:50 -0400 last edited: Mon, 07 Oct 2024 01:22:12 -0400

@𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼 Geez. The man is recovering from getting hit by a hurricane, and [redacted]. Give the man a break.

I can see why he wants to maintain his own repositories. If I were a developer, your accusatory and disrespectful tone would make me not want to contribute to Hubzilla anymore.

I've talked to him about his plans, most of which are not public. Everything he is doing literally helps Hubzilla. To state or imply that is not true is just rude.

If you want something changed, discuss the plans, don't attack the person. If you attack the person, they will just say no as a way of saying [redacted].

EDIT: Edited at the request of the moderator to comply with community rules.

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

Wed, 02 Oct 2024 10:52:15 -0400

sorry my English seams to be not good enough - i do not want to be accusatory or disrespectful at all - not even sound like it... if it is so in your ears i bag truly for apology

Scott M. Stolz

Wed, 02 Oct 2024 11:02:53 -0400 last edited: Wed, 02 Oct 2024 11:11:51 -0400

@Tejan Ausland I appreciate you standing up for me, but please don't escalate things.

@𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼 I am not sure where to begin. You are literally telling me what I already planned, and you are falsely implying that I have different plans.

The plan has NOT changed one bit.

Common things were ALWAYS intended to be offered to Hubzilla's core & official repositories. That was the plan before. That is the plan now.

This includes the proposed template changes I am talking about, and Redbasic Plus.

But I am also a big believer of decentralization and collaboration. And that is why we are setting up two separate organizations with two separate missions which will work together. I want to be an example of multiple developers and organizations working together on shared interests.

After all, decentralization isn't decentralization if we put everything into one organization.

I have not really talked about this publicly. but I am trying to create an infrastructure that allows people with strong personalities to work together and share resources.

To give some background. @Mike Macgirvin 🖥️ forked @Hubzilla and created @Streams so that he would have the independence to implement his ideas without needing approval from anyone else. I am not sure why @Mario Vavti forked Hubzilla from the previous project, but he also enjoys not having to ask permission to make changes to his project. Likewise, I started @Federated Works so that I can implement what I want to work on without needing to get permission from someone else.

So, how do you get strong personalities like that to work together? With a spirit of collaboration, patience, and with the help of some tools that I am building.

And, @𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼, you mentioned the Hubzilla Association, and you mentioned that not much was set up. That is true, but I also see that people have still been collaborating on documentation and other features while I was gone, which is what the Hubzilla Association is supposed to facilitate. So, maybe everything isn't as official as we like, but the fact that people are collaborating is a win for Hubzilla Association.

I am still the President of Hubzilla Association, even though I left on a personal temporary leave of absence. So that left you and @Ema エマ in charge while I was gone. So the state of affairs reflects on you more than me. And all things considering, I don't think it is that bad. After all, people collaborating on the project is the entire purpose of the Hubzilla Association, and I see people doing that.

I know what my responsibilities are as President, and I have not forgotten them. Things that belong in the core will be in the core. Things that don't belong in the core won't be in the core. Nothing has changed.

Now, this is literally my third day back in the office after a family emergency. Give me some time to get caught up. Please have some patience.

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

Wed, 02 Oct 2024 11:33:06 -0400

please i do not want to be accusatory or disrespectful at all - I'm just worrying about the project if i have a look at the core repro and realizing how few actor are there active - that is all.

Jupiter Rowland

Wed, 02 Oct 2024 16:26:04 -0400

@Scott M. Stolz Just a few corrections:

Hubzilla was created by Mike himself in 2015 out of his own Red Matrix from 2012. Mario only took over in 2018. That was when Mike

either forked both the first Osada and Zap from Hubzilla
or forked the first Osada from Hubzilla and then Zap from Osada
or, I think this is the least likely, forked Zap from Hubzilla and then the first Osada from Zap

to develop Zot6. This was necessary because Zot6 was expected to be so radically different from Hubzilla's then-current Zot that he couldn't develop Zot6 on Hubzilla.

In fact, back then, Mike expected Zot6 to be incompatible with non-nomadic protocols unless nomadicity was sacrificed. Hence, there was a Zap that spoke only Zot6 and nothing else and was nomadic, and there was Osada that spoke Zot6 plus just about everything Hubzilla spoke, but was not nomadic anymore.

This also means that the streams repository is no straight Hubzilla fork. AFAIK, it was forked from Roadhouse from earlier in 2021, which was forked from either the third Osada or Mistpark 2020 or Redmatrix 2020, at least one of which was forked from Zap.

Related...

Scott M. Stolz

Wed, 02 Oct 2024 16:59:20 -0400

@Jupiter Rowland I don't know the specifics, but I do know that Mike created the code behind Hubzilla, and then later forked his own codebase and created Streams and later Forte.

The point I was trying to make was that Mike created Streams so that it would be independent of Hubzilla.

Other people have said that Streams is a fork of Hubzilla. I do not know if it is a direct fork, but looking at the Streams code, a lot of the code is nearly identical to Hubzilla. I suspect what they are saying is true.

It would be interesting to write an accurate history of the projects starting from the very beginning.

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

Wed, 02 Oct 2024 17:38:16 -0400

@Scott M. Stolz

looking at the Streams code, a lot of the code is nearly identical to Hubzilla

oh... Mike would argue quid about that

The point I was trying to make was that Mike created Streams so that it would be independent of Hubzilla.

so we have to look at your work as it is a fork of Hubzilla?

Maybe i have to learn more about it but from my perceptive mike did different thinks to the code as you try to do.

Earlier you said - a fork is not needed because the system is modular and i found this is true.

Still you are looking for independents - Hmmm OK

So the core dev team stays alone as it is

Scott M. Stolz

Wed, 02 Oct 2024 17:42:29 -0400

@𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼 We will get more contributors, both to the Hubzilla repository and the Federated Works repository. Remember, Federated Works did not fork Hubzilla. It's just building technology on top of it. Both projects benefits since they are interconnected.

To grow the Hubzilla ecosystem, we need more theme options, better documentation, flagship websites running Hubzilla, and Hubzilla hosting. And better coordination, making it easier to collaborate.

I have plans for all of these.

I'm working on more theme options, and trying to create example code other people could use. Hopefully this will encourage other theme developers to work with Hubzilla.

Once we get some unique themes, I will launch more than one public hub. I have some cool domain names like

https://loves.tech and

https://barefoot.garden and

https://mostly.social and others. I also am working with others who want to launch their own fediverse servers too.

We have @K&T Host and Unbranded Social (from my company) for Hubzilla hosting, starting at less than $6 per month. So easy and inexpensive hosting options are covered.

We already have people working on the documentation, but we can make it a bit easier for people to collaborate.

And speaking of collaboration, I am working on converting my planner software that I have been using for years to work on the Hubzilla platform and making it multi-user. The goal is to create a collaboration platform that uses OpenWebAuth, so people can use their existing social identity. This will make it easier for everyone to collaborate.

I didn't want to talk about these plans yet since it will take time to build and I wanted to surprise people when the new sites popped up. But it looks like I will need to share a bit of it so that people have confidence in what I am doing and to give context to why I am doing what I am doing.

So, there is a master plan and the components we need are coming together. I'll share more privately when we have our Hubzilla Association Executive Committee meetings.

Scott M. Stolz

Wed, 02 Oct 2024 18:02:04 -0400

@𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

oh... Mike would argue quid about that

I am referring to the parts he has not changed, obviously. He has made a lot of changes, but the original codebase he started with was Hubzilla or a close relative.

@𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

so we have to look at your work as it is a fork of Hubzilla?

My work is not a fork of Hubzilla at all. It is mostly addons, widgets, and themes.

As I have repeatedly said, things that belong in the core go in the core, and things that belong outside the code belong outside the core.

@𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

Still you are looking for independents - Hmmm OK

So the core dev team stays alone as it is

That is NOT what I am saying.

I don't know how many different ways I can explain this.

For things that go into the core, I and others will contribute to the core.

And what goes into the core is up to @Mario Vavti since he is the lead developer. What the community wants is also a factor, since it only makes sense to add things to the core if the community wants it in the core too.

For things that do not go into the core, I and others will put them in independent repositories. Why? Because they are not wanted in the core!!!

I keep repeating the same thing over and over, yet you reply as if I never said it.

Jupiter Rowland

Wed, 02 Oct 2024 18:10:26 -0400

@Scott M. Stolz To my best knowledge, the history was about like this:

2010
DFRN created.
Mistpark launched.
Mistpark renamed to Friendika.

2011
Zot created.
Probably announcement by Mike to pass Friendika on to the community so he can concentrate on Zot and nomadic identity.
Probably announcement by the community to relicense Friendica from the MIT license to the GPL.

2012
Friendika forked to Free-Friendika (by someone who wanted there to be an MIT-licensed Friendika forever; the fork never even saw a single commit).
Friendika renamed to Friendica.
Friendica forked to Red.
Friendica handed over to the Community.
Friendica relicensed to GPL.
Red largely re-written against Zot.
Red renamed Red Matrix.
Free-Friendika discontinued.

2013
First stable release of the Red Matrix.

2015
Red Matrix renamed Hubzilla and redesigned (because the Red Matrix was nomadic Friendica, and there was no market for nomadic Friendica back then).

2017
Hubzilla became the first Fediverse project to adopt ActivityPub.

2018
Development of Zot6 started.
(Either)
Hubzilla forked to Osada (I).
Osada (I) reduced in function.
Osada (I) forked to Zap.
(Or)
Hubzilla forked to Osada (I).
Hubzilla forked to Zap.
Both reduced in function.
(Or)
Hubzilla forked to Zap.
Zap reduced in function.
Zap forked to Osada (I).
(End of this block)
Hubzilla handed over to the community.
Osada (I) discontinued (its concept of a non-nomadic bridge between nomadic but Zot6-only Zap and the rest of the Fediverse didn't work out).
Zap forked to Osada (II) (= Zap, but with ActivityPub).

2019
ActivityPub added to Friendica.
Osada (II) and Zap handed over to the community.
Osada (II) merged into Zap (codebase was already identical at this point, and Osada was Zap with ActivityPub on server-side by default and different branding).
Osada (II) discontinued.

2020
Development of Zot8 started.
Zap forked to Osada (III), Mistpark 2020 a.k.a. Misty and Redmatrix 2020. Which was exactly forked from which is hard to tell.
(The official goal of having three new projects was to have three different levels of stability: Zap was to be stable, Misty was to be semi-stable for those who wanted to daily-drive new features, Osada was to be bleeding-edge, but with ActivityPub on by default, Redmatrix 2020 was to be at least as bleeding-edge, but with ActivityPub off by default. In reality, all three shared the same code, and they were three in order to confuse the brand fetishists.)
Hubzilla upgraded to Zot6 plus OpenWebAuth.

2021
Development of Zot11 started.
Zot11 renamed to Nomad (because it was no longer compatible with older Zot).
Either Osada (III) or Misty or Redmatrix 2020 forked to Roadhouse.
Roadhouse forked to (streams).

2022
Zap discontinued.
Osada (III) discontinued.
Misty discontinued.
Redmatrix 2020 discontinued.
Roadhouse discontinued.
Admins of all five advised to crossgrade to (streams) by rebasing their servers.

2024
(streams) forked to Forte (= (streams) without Nomad and Zot6).

Scott M. Stolz

Wed, 02 Oct 2024 18:42:34 -0400

@Jupiter Rowland Thanks for the history. I'll save that for later.

I remember when Friendika announced the switch from MIT license to AGPL in 2011. I was so frustrated when they did this.